Belief versus direct experience

If you believe it, it's true... (0.00 / 0)

Of course you believe it to be true, Gill--you wrote the script. :)  The mind's job is to believe what it thinks, and it accumulates all sorts of evidence to prove it. Feeling and emotion follow thought. Think about it this way: For you to feel good or bad about any experience, there has to be at least a primitive evaluation of that experience as "good" or "bad," pleasant or unpleasant. That always comes prior to any feeling about experience. I'm not saying these things are conscious--indeed, for most of us, they're not; they're deeply wired into our limbic systems. But they're no less beliefs because of that. They can be undone. I've seen it a thousand times, and I've experienced it in myself. I've seen whole worlds of nightmare vanish with the undoing of a single thought.

I know this to be true, also, because the world, absent of our interpretation of it, is completely neutral. It cannot be for or against us, because it's our interpretation of it that determines that it's so. Two people can look at, or experience, the same event, and come up with two completely different meanings and experiences of it--both of which feel absolutely true to them. And I'm not saying the experience of that isn't real, or that it's somehow "all in their heads" for being based in belief. It's absolutely real. That's what "reality" is--"reality" follows experience which issues from feeling which follows belief. If this weren't true, then experience couldn't ever change or be re-evaluated; we'd always be dealing with something permanent, unchanging, and monolithic. You'd still feel exactly the same way you did when you were first born. The fact that experience is as fluid and changeable as it is (and even though you believe your experience of the key events in your life to be fixed; I'll gather that if you really microscopically examine even one experience, you'll find that that isn't true; that there are day-to-day fluctuations in it, or variations in intensity, or re-evaluations of its meaning or impact on you, or even moments when you forget all about it) means that there must be some substratum that isn't fixed; some aspect of experience that isn't solid at all; some key aspect of us that is quite permeable and open to revision and editing.

The fact that you feel something to be true doesn't prove anything (other than that's what you feel in this moment). It's a little bit like saying "I know this person's guilty because I killed them." It's circular. It's the mind's job to prove that it's right. Have you noticed? Or, as another source puts it, "The mind is a wrong-seeking missile." No one likes to realize this (at least initially; eventually it becomes totally freeing :). We think our safety and sanity comes from believing the mind. But how many among us has actually had the courage to actually question this "ultimate authority" in our lives? We question our teachers, our parents, our institutions, but never our minds. Why? If they're so capable of being wrong, why not us? What makes us so special that *our* minds are infallible? (And are they really? How many times have you forgotten what you said or did a moment ago, let alone yesterday, two weeks, or ten years ago? How infallible is the mind, really?)

As one brilliant writer put it, "Argue for your limitations, and they're yours." Meaning, as long as you believe something to be true and cling to that belief, it will be true for you. But the minute you truly stop believing the story--poof! It's gone forever. I was just pointing out to someone I love very much last night (and believe me, I lived here for many, many years, so I know that of which I speak) how strenuously it was that they argued for their limitations. You're actually defending your story of pain, Gill, as if it were your most precious possession in the world. Think about that. Perhaps you think/feel you'd be lost without it. Perhaps (and this, from my experience, is more likely with painful stories) you think/feel that it protects you in some way, that without it, you'd be vulnerable to the very attacks you play over and over in your mind, even when they're not actually happening. (That alone should give you pause.) Perhaps you're trying to prove your innocence in the face of the world's guilt. (You're already innocent. You don't need to prove it.) The mind is very strenouous in arguing for its reality. It will literally *kill* to defend what it believes (look around you. The proof is everywhere. It might even be getting angry as I say this). But I ask you now, Is it really doing what you want? Is it *really* protecting you? What do you get when you believe your story of pain? Who would you be without it?

Gill, who would you be without your (story of) pain? (And please don't answer me on this one. Just sit with it, if you're inclined to. See if you can, just for a moment, see the world--and yourself--without it. See how that feels.)

I once had a very great Tibetan Buddhist teacher (a woman--that should give you Buddhists a clue to who she is ;) say to me, very gently, after I unloaded my story of woe on her, sobbing the whole time: "Why do you hold on to your pain?" The question completely startled me, and it stopped me in my tracks. I didn't have an answer for her, other than, "I don't know how to let go of it." (That, I think, is true for most of us--we hold onto our pain because we don't know how to let go of it, all the while desperately looking for a way out.)

But the question stuck with me, all these years. I still find myself defending and holding onto my pain at times, but since then, I've also learned how to let go of it--I mean really let go, so it's no longer in my body in the form of energetic traces (i.e. feelings), or in the mind in the form of scary, painful pictures, images, thoughts, and belief. And all it takes is a simple question: "Is this really true?" or "Is it possible this isn't true?"--and the willingness to (deeply) question our minds, or what we believe is true. For most of us, that means the willingness to question God, which is the level of authority we give to our minds. You might think you'll go crazy if you do this. (Look at how your life is now. Is this sanity?) You might think you'll lose your identity. (Is this an identity you want to hold onto for all eternity?) You might think you'll lose touch with "reality." (You will, but you'll discover a whole new one that is much kinder, much more liberating, and doesn't make you "crazy" at all--just at peace.) In my experience, the exact opposite is true. Reality is always kinder than our stories. When we believe our thoughts, we suffer; when we question (deeply question) our thoughts, we are set free.

I know this all contradicts (what I understand to be) the Waking Down dogma--or at least its methodology. And it's possible that more than a few of you reading this might be seriously pissed off--and defending your beliefs harder than ever. That's all right; it's bound to happen. There are different ways of approaching freedom from suffering (and I wouldn't be here for a minute if I didn't think Waking Down wasn't ultimately about that). One is directly through--the via negativa, or whatever else you want to call it (this is the Waking Down way)--validating (or "greenlighting") and feeling the suffering completely so that it ultimately is freed and dissolves. (I'll say it again: I wouldn't be here for a minute if I thought the purpose of Waking Down was to validate/greenlight our suffering so we can continue to stew in it for the rest of our lives. As Joe and others have pointed out very clearly, it's not.) Another is to simply clip the umbilical cord of the suffering--just to cut the cords of the belief(s) that hold the suffering in place. That's what I'm talking about here. They're not mutually incompatible, although they might seem to be. And it's possible to hold both approaches in mind while you're going through your process and your life: 1) that the suffering you're experiencing is absolutely true and real while you're going through it, and 2) it has no ultimate reality, and it can be gotten free of (that's not good English, but I was going for a particular emphasis ;).

Anyhoo, I think I've said enough here. You may agree with me; you may not; you may be able to hear some of this, you may not; you may get angry, you may not; you may find it helpful, you may not--but regardless of your reaction, hopefully some seeds have been planted that might take root in the future. I don't profess to be perfect at the things I'm talking about (I'm not enlightened, or anywhere close), and I'm not trying to claim that this is the only approach, just that it's an approach to cutting suffering that has worked for me and for countless others. It's available to you or for anyone who wants it, and it doesn't belong to me (or to anyone). I offer this in the spirit of truth and in the hopes that the suffering of beings everywhere be alleviated--

With much love,

Nicole

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by: Nicole @ Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 12:11:21 PM CDT

Incommensurable ways of knowing (0.00 / 0)

I actually have a different take on Gill's post than Nicole does. While Gill's perspective doesn't appear to resemble my own, I don't feel that I can say anything about whether it is belief or felt experience, authentic or mediated.

I think that the position that Nicole advocates (which seems more Buddhist than Waking Down-ish to me) is a well-established and effective way of reducing pain and suffering. But it's only one way of knowing among others, and I doubt that it says anything ultimately about "truth" beyond its frame of reference.

Gill, you say that no one need agree with you, and it's not that I'm agreeing, exactly. But I do uphold you as the foremost authority on what the truth is for you.

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by: Michael @ Fri Sep 25, 2009 at 16:45:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Let me calibrate that a bit (0.00 / 0)

In an offline communication, Nicole informed me that I am "poopy," and she probably has a point.

One of the things that I'd originally intended to express is an appreciation for how well written and thought-out Nicole's contribution is here. If someone has the intention to alleviate their own suffering, one could hardly do better than to follow the gist of her argument.

My point was more a philosophical one, in that since one cannot separate a world-nature from an act of knowing, it is problematic to assert that there are truths applicable to all acts of knowing. It seems to me that Waking Down teachings are consistent with that understanding; it's one of the things I like best about Waking Down, and I find that, among other things, Gill is upholding that principle in her posting.

But there's certainly nothing wrong in pointing out, as Nicole does here, that there are approaches to Being that a great many people have found to be conducive to growth, hope, happiness, and peace. The world would be a darker place if no one ever spoke up about this. And I myself would be a sadder and more fragmented person without Nicole's compassionate healing perspective.

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by: Michael @ Sat Sep 26, 2009 at 14:04:48 PM CDT

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Being one's own Authority (0.00 / 0)

Dear Michael

Thanks so much for this (and your next) posting.  Yes, I am the foremost authority on what the truth is for me - as potentially we all are.  It is very hard standing in that truth sometimes - and I'm still amazed at how others can get me to doubt what I know it true for me.  Sometimes that doubt and questioning is healthy and helpful.  But sometimes the opposite.  

So I stand by what I said.  It is true for me.

Love, Gill

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by: Gill Smith @ Mon Sep 28, 2009 at 08:50:44 AM CDT

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And the opposite is true (0.00 / 0)

Who would you be if you stopped trying to turn everything around???!

Nicole, I hear some of what you're saying.  But don't agree.  I just don't, sorry.  You can believe (hah!) all you want about me trying to hang on to some identity or other, but it's simply not true.  Even though I know you won't believe me.

As I said in my posting to Michael below, I stand in my truth.

Love, Gill

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by: Gill Smith @ Mon Sep 28, 2009 at 09:22:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Touché... (0.00 / 0)

Well, you may have a point there, Gill. :)  I'm sorry if I pushed. I just hate to see anyone in pain, and this approach has been immensely useful to me. If it doesn't work for you, so be it. (I am glad, however, that you did at least check out BK's teachings. :). I hope that you find your peace, by whatever means.

Love,

Nicole 

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by: Nicole @ Mon Sep 28, 2009 at 12:00:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Seeing others in pain (0.00 / 0)

Hi Nicole

Just to say you have more than once used the expression "I hate to see anyone in pain" - so I just wanted to reflect this back to you, as it's obviously an issue for you.  

It is one thing, I've found, checking the "hypermasculine" impulse in myself, but quite another when it comes to witnessing others' suffering and checking the impulse then, if there is one.  I personally find it harder.  In other words, I find it easier to suffer myself than to witness others' suffering sometimes.

Doing nothing about others' suffering drops us into some strange places - ones of feeling perhaps selfish, or even cruel, or right into a very helpless place.  It's quite hard to do, so we prefer to try and help the other. Obviously, sometimes help can be given, but when it can't...or when we choose just to let it be as it is...

So what comes up for you (or anyone else on this Forum for that matter) if/when you just choose to listen to or experience another's suffering without trying to change it?

Love, Gill

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by: Gill Smith @ Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 08:43:39 AM CDT

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Belief vs experience (0.00 / 0)

These are not easy concepts to articulate and I agree that Nicole has done a good job of writing about them in a thoughtful way.  However my understanding and experience lead me to somewhat different conclusions than either Nicole or Gill or Michael.

Nicole wrote:
I know this all contradicts (what I understand to be) the Waking Down dogma--or at least its methodology. ...  There are different ways of approaching freedom from suffering (and I wouldn't be here for a minute if I didn't think Waking Down wasn't ultimately about that).

I don't think I've ever heard anyone state that "freedom from suffering" is part of the WDM dogma.  My understanding of WDM is about being fully present to what is -- and that sometimes includes suffering as part of the human condition.  But I suppose you could say that awakening to what is gives some freedom from the mental suffering we all add on top of the pain that comes with human birth, as stated in the common saying "Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional."

I do think that part of the WDM dogma is a sort of caution around the approach Nicole is advocating:  "simply clip the umbilical cord of the suffering--just to cut the cords of the belief(s) that hold the suffering in place."  I think one potential difficulty with this approach is that people can all too easily dissociate from their feelings without actually doing the deeper work of healing the beliefs behind them.  Another problem can be when followers of a particular spiritual tradition or a particular teacher may end up feeling like there is just something wrong with them that they cannot simply let go of their suffering as they are being told to do.

Even the language you used here, Nicole, makes me think of how Saniel describes the violence -- and often self-violence -- of traditional spiritual paths.  In more humane, gentler birthing traditions, a midwife does not rush to cut the umbilical cord; she waits for the baby's body naturally realizes it has no more need for that connection to the mother.

Nicole wrote:
And it's possible to hold both approaches in mind while you're going through your process and your life: 1) that the suffering you're experiencing is absolutely true and real while you're going through it, and 2) it has no ultimate reality, and it can be gotten free of.

I'm wondering how you sync 'suffering has no ultimate reality' with Saniel's claims -- which is my truth as well -- that matter and human experience are every bit as real and divine as consciousness.

All that being said, I do agree with Nicole that our beliefs shape our experience of reality and that we can question our beliefes, reevaluate them, change them and thus change our experience of reality.

Gill wrote:
The way I experience life now is not belief, but direct felt experience. I presume this is true for many of us "awoken" ones.

It has not been my experience that "awakening" has eliminated the influence of my beliefs over my direct experience of reality.  I certainly have a broader perception of direct experience than I did before, plus I can usually remember to call on the more neutral observations of Consciousness to balance my more limited perspective and to help me question whether I am filtering 'reality' through my own limiting beliefs.  But that seems to be an ongoing process of growth and it is not something that I take for granted just because I am 'awake'.

I loved the way this was discussed at the recent "Welcome to Your Second Life" course which I attended.  The teachers there explained that the post-2nd birth period is full of struggles with our past conditioning and that, over time, several things tend to happen:

- The parts of ourselves which were actually something imposed on us by others will gradually drop away.

- The parts of ourselves which we had shut off because they were rejected by others will gradually become integrated.

But, as I understood the discussion, there is really no way to know ahead of time which pieces to keep and which to let go of.  Often the parts of us we are convinced are really us turn out to be things we let go of.  By contrast, sometimes the things we struggle most to get rid of actually turn out to be parts of ourselves we've been trying to reject, but which in the end become integrated and reclaimed.

The only thing we can do is to embrace them all as they arise, dive into them all as 'what is' in any moment, greenlight them all as our experience of reality, and wait to see how it all sorts out eventually.  If you tried to cut these umbilical cords, how would you know which ones to cut and which ones to leave intact?

But Ted, Hillary, and Krishna were definite about the fact that there will be changes unfolding and that we should stay open the idea that we may let go of parts of ourselves which we've relied on for years and also open to the idea that new aspects of ourselves may develop that we never thought possible before.

This is the idea which I find absent from Gill's post -- this idea that our direct experience of reality might continue to evolve as we open to and deeply explore ourselves with all the new resources provided by our 2nd birth.

Some of the other senior WDM teachers I've talked to in the past have said it took in the range of 7 to 10 years before they felt like they had moved through this whole process of letting go of old beliefs and limitations.

So, Gill, I would just encourage you to stay open to the possibility that, at some time in the future, you may discover that your direct experience of reality has changed.  And your experience won't change until you are ready for it to change, so until them it is your experience.  But keep in mind, as Nicole pointed out, it is reality filtered through your experience -- not some objective form of reality.

One last comment I want to make is about Gill's last point:  As for the "bliss" we can sometimes experience - that is almost a form of escapism and sooner or later we are thrown headlong - with even more force - back into our vulnerable bodies, minds and relationships.

Just as with the comments Nicole made about letting go of suffering, I think this idea of 'bliss' can mean different things to different teachers and different spiritual paths.  Yes, some people do have a tendency to use bliss as an escape.  But that doesn't mean that bliss is bad or that anyone who talks about experiencing bliss along side of pain and suffering is just escaping.

Your description, Gill, of 'being thrown headlong back into our vulnerable bodies' seems indicative of a separation between body and bliss.  To me, they are not separate or opposite in any way.  My experiences of bliss are not about being out of my body or escaping into pure consciousness.  I experience bliss as being very much body-centered, although it usually also includes an expanded awareness of being much more than my small physical body.  My experiences of bliss are often about being very present to physical reality all around me - trees, flowers, birds, people, sun and wind -- and including my own body.  For me, bliss is often about feeling exquisitely fully alive in the moment and feeling blown away by the mystery of that.  And, yes, sometimes I can feel that bliss even in the midst of great pain and suffering.  They are not mutually exclusive.  

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by: SusanJoy @ Sun Sep 27, 2009 at 14:05:00 PM CDT

Reply to Susan and Many thanks to everyone (0.00 / 0)

Susan - first of all in some response to yourself. Yes I would say I am always open to whatever life may bring me - both now and in the future.  I'm more than open to life delivering me an exceptionally happy good time - hah! if only it would! - it's just that now I presume that won't happen.  Why? Just life experience, I guess.  But my presumptions don't stop me from being open to it - only I don't seek it or hope for it any longer.

I don't really experience any "bliss" in my body - Consciousness, yes, but that's not particularly blissful to me.  Because of my process, I did split off quite a lot into the Absolute and then manifest Consciousness prior to the bodymind - and I have to say they were the most blissful and powerful experiences I've had.  I'm not advocating this - just saying this was my process prior to coming across Waking Down and having my 2nd Birth in 2001.

Yes, the parts of ourselves that were actually imposed upon us by others will gradually want to drop away - and in some cases this will be possible.  HOWEVER, there is a rider to this.  I've found that I can't drop certain things I'd love to because life, society and my job and others around me simply don't make it possible - or make it extremely difficult.  For example, my body would like to sleep and rest a lot more than my day job will allow me - and there's nothing I can do about that if I want to survive.  Also, because everyone around me is unembodied and unawake, their "rules" differ so much from mine - and I often have to play their game to survive.  Hope you see what I mean.

Having said all of that, I am grateful to everyone who has taken part in all of this discussion with me around the "negative" in life - because it has helped me see how that part of me has been so denied and others stuff imposed upon me.  I am seeing more and more how deep this goes for me - because it is so unpopular (and taboo) and I have been rejected many times for it.  I've even rejected myself and my own beliefs and experience.  It was even difficult to "take a stand" on this forum, because I knew I was in better, more conscious company - and hey, who knows, some of you may have been right, so I had to consider the whole issue again and re-examine the "evidence".

Finally, for all of us, it's not just about ourselves and our own suffering of course, but always also the rest of the world. The world and others' suffering around us is "negative" enough in itself, I find, however I may be feeling.

Love to all, Gill  

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by: Gill Smith @ Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 08:10:24 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Bravo (0.00 / 0)

Excellent conversation!
I really appreciate everyone's contributions here.  

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by: Krishna @ Mon Sep 28, 2009 at 15:39:05 PM CDT

My thoughts... (0.00 / 0)

Hi, everyone.
I haven't posted much (or recently), so a brief introduction.

I'm about four years into my second life and involvement with Waking Down (my second birth was actually a month or so before I found Waking Down). I'm just completing my Master's degree in Wilber's Integral Psychology at JFK University in the San Francisco Bay area, and part of the course of my second life was to bring me back to a profound experience of, and participation in, Christianity as one of my spiritual paths and influences.

I've been following this discussion for the last month or so, and deeply appreciated the comments on this thread.

Saniel's teachings on the Core Wound was one aspect of his work that landed in my cells with the force of a hurricane. I like to fix things, and fix people (including myself) so that there is less suffering. It's one of the things that Enneagram 1's do. What my understanding of the Core Wound gave me was a realization that there is--and always will be--suffering I can't fix. That led me to understand how deeply I feared those things which I knew I couldn't fix. They terrified me. But as I began to get that my desire and yearnings and movements towards transcendence would always live side by side with the pain and suffering that comes with existing in space and time (for the moment anyway), I became less terrified. I try to mitigate suffering where I can because any suffering that can be transformed should be transformed--as Saniel says, life will always hand us pain we can do nothing about, so dealing with unnecessary pain is above and beyond the call of duty of being divinely human.

But "necessary pain" is a deeply subjective and fast moving marker. I've known people who lived with suffering I probably could not endure. I don't know Gill at all, and don't presume to speak for her, but my impression is that she may live most of her life in the Core Wound. After her awakened life of 8 years, I find it necessary to affirm that her described experience of her existence is accurate and valid--if one I'm not sure I could navigate. Because I value joy and bliss and being pulled out of suffering, I find I hope that for her, but I also admire her for continuing with that felt experience.

And here's something I would have to watch for in myself: I want to make sure that I don't try to use reason or cognitive behavioral therapy, or other such useful tools to bring someone out of their pain mainly because I am deeply afraid that if they can suffer that way, so can I. I desire (as do many of us, I believe) some assurance that what has happened to people I know who suffer greatly won't ever happen to me, but I believe with every cell of my being that there is no such assurance. Life hands us shit, bad things happen to good people, and I have no inherent pass that keeps me out of that reality. What will I do if it happens to me? I don't know. I will probably make different meaning out of it than I would have before my awakened life and exposure to Saniel's teachings, but there are a variety of options available to me and I haven't ruled any of them out.

I've been lucky, and privileged, and am deeply grateful for the joy and transcendence in my life that co-exists with the suffering I have had. But I try really hard not to take the joy for granted, or believe that it will always be there.  

Blessings,

Lola

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by: lolamccrary @ Sat Oct 10, 2009 at 19:43:00 PM CDT

My thoughts (0.00 / 0)

Hi Lola

So nice to hear another new voice on the Forum.

Thank you so much for your understanding - it was like smoothe balm.

Yes, I guess I AM the Core Wound virtually 100% of the time, and it's painful indeed.  The Transcendent is always shining through, but that makes it even more painful and consious a lot of the time.

Recently I've been wondering what the difference might be between the "ego" and the "core wound" in the light of some of Bernadette Roberts' writings.  You may well be interested in her, given your Christian interests.  Or perhaps you've already read her?  Her Realisation is different in some ways, and there's huge denial of shadow, I feel - but her ultimate descriptions of the no-self condition and Christ as Eternal Form blow my mind..

MOST IMPORTANTLY for me are your brave statements around not wanting to know or see others' pain for fear that this could happen to you.  INDEED!!! That's it, precisely.  We are all frightened of that, perhaps.  Just look at all the awful things that can happen to us - and realise that none of us are immune to any of it happening to ourselves.

Human's have an innate capacity somehow to believe "it won't happen to me".  But if and when you lose that sense of immunity - which has happened to me on more than one momentous occasion (and, to be fair, keeps on happening even in smaller ways) then it is terrifying indeed.

Thanks again for your posting Lola.  I much appreciate it.

Love,

Gill

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by: Gill Smith @ Wed Oct 14, 2009 at 07:05:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Core Wound Mystery (0.00 / 0)

Gill-
You have come a long way, and thank you. I applaud you and praise your efforts here  to make sense of your own truth in the post Second Birth landscape.
To live in the Core Wound 8 years after your second birth, well, I stand amazed. Who even talks about feeling the Core Wound post second birth?
I don't know where to start. I have read all your posts here with great interest, and many times felt tempted to comment, in support, and to greenlight you in staying with your truth. But I have also found I agree with points made by others who argue with you for a more cheerful and optimistic view of reality.
I reckon by what you have written that I live with more happiness and enjoyment of life than you do, but I do feel superior or  judge you for this, as I try not to ever judge people. I feel strongly about not judging. In fact, I  personally hate people who judge others ;-)
No, I just assume that I live in better life conditions than you do, partly through blind good luck. I do not live in Darfur, or Afghanistan, for example. I have not had to live through the horrors and brutality of war, or genocide.
So I usually make my way through life with a positive and optimistic attitude. I have had the luxury of experiencing good health and relationships, and steady, though sometimes boring employment. I have also enjoyed some of the benefits of the Second Birth.
I count one benefit as the change I experienced in the way I felt the Core Wound. Now I never liked that term, but I did like that Saniel put a name on a feeling I had felt for many years. I called it by my own nickname, which I won't share here, but I also tried other names, such as spiritual hunger, homesickness, OMsickness, emptiness, desolation, and other descriptions in this vein. Oh, how could I forget- I also thought of it as my spiritual compass, although the word "spiritual" has gotten too much of a beating to be of much use to me.
The Core Wound guided me. It never lied to me, but often it would return to me after a time away, and burn through whatever lie or strategy I had found to cover up or escape from it. It always said to me "no, not this", and pointed me again to true north. What happened to my sense of the Core Wound after my Second Birth?
It expanded to include my whole body, and more. Instead of feeling contained from my throat to my solar plexus, it expanded and became a radiant connecting force, unseparate from the infinite sea of being. It became my trapdoor to divinity. It took me a while to get my "sea legs" and I went through a lot of bad shakedown periods without support from the Waking Down community as I had completely disconnected from them, in a huff. I eventually went through a long period of luxuriating in Unity and Bliss, and gradually  I found a way to live in this physical reality with meaning and purpose. With that, with getting more "down", I felt the return of the Core Wound. I learned how to relax with the CW, so that I did not have to live with unnecessary pain. Part of my suffering from the CW comes from a very subtle tension I held in resistance to it. I learned to relax this tension more and more.
Now here we come to a key point, and one reason I have written all this crap. And I call it crap merely because it falls so short of what I want to express. So often our assumptions about life and reality come to us disguised as evidence based conclusions. I always thought that feeling the CW COMPLETELY would relieve me of the suffering of it. Here I distinguish between pain and suffering. While pain can remain in place, if you have a complete experience of it, you will not suffer from it, as the suffering component comes from the resistance to feeling it. I have learned this from various teachers and from my own experience. But my current experience contradicts this. The CW returned to me, intermittently, with pain AND suffering.
I still suffer from feeling the Core Wound. I have just found new ways to avoid it. And it still points me to the true north of this present moment. If I avoid this feeling and find some distraction, I feel better. I can choose to hang out in the Core Wound, or I can go into blissful unity or various distractions.
You don't seem to have a choice about feeling the Core Wound. I think I have a choice, but I choose to feel it anyway. It feels more real to me than my other choices.
Recently Saniel changed the name of Core Wound to Core Mystery. I don't know if this change has caught on, but I like the new phrase. It doesn't sound so bad to me, living in the Core Mystery. I think it connects me to eternity. I get a sense of moving out of man made time and feeling the eternal stillness of now.
Still, it contradicts my perception of Waking Down teaching, from Saniel to other teachers,  to experience the suffering of the Core Wound, or Core Mystery so far into our Second Birth. We should have moved on by now.

Another model for thinking about this comes from Bernadette Robert's work. I found myself stunned by the clarity and power of "What is Self?" especially in comparison to her previous books. Have you noticed the difference?  Anyway I bought the little video she made too, wherein she explains her little circle illustrations of growing in unity while shrinking in self. By that model, at a certain point, any difficult experiences or emotions should increase my unitive consciousness. I used to feel that working for me. Now I don't.

Just as a preemptive caution, I don't usually respond quickly on forums like this.

Ghasso and Love,

Bapa

PS_ By the way, it anyone responds to this post, please do not try to guess my real name. I do  not want my real name to appear anywhere on this forum, and will ask Michael to remove it if it does.  I don't do this just for fun. I have my reasons.

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by: Bapa @ Mon Oct 19, 2009 at 07:08:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Core Wound Mystery (0.00 / 0)

Hi Bapa

Thank you for your thoughtful posting.  I actually did a long reply to you yesterday, but somehow my computer wasn't having any of it and I lost the lot...so, anyway, here goes again.

Firstly, yes I agree that What Is Self? is the better of the 3 books - the ending pages in particular I felt particularly powerful.  So powerful in fact that they took me right to that Utter Transcendent Divine that she talks about.  That was on Jan 31st this year and was the most powerful experience I've had since my initial initiation in 1997 via Adi Da.  It took me by surprise because I don't consider myself a seeker any more since 2nd Birth in 2001.  I rarely read spiritual teachers, let alone go seeking for any more "big" experiences.  I thought my journey was done...but Roberts points out to me that it's a possibility (not necessarily a definite) that the next stage will be to lose my ego and then my self.

Her writings question a lot of WDM's outlook in that she doesn't see the self as Divine.  Even though she knows it arises in the Divine, which is everywhere.  If I've got it right, manifest Consciousness and matter is Christ and the Utterly Transcendent Divine is what she calls the Father or God.

Anyway, to not divinise the self or ego is a different stance from WDM to be sure.  I'm not saying I agree with her, but..

I don't know if I'm personnaly living as the "Core Wound" - it's just a term I agreed to because this is a WDM site.  What I am, rather, is a more or less fully conscious Body and mind - conscious right down to my toes, as Da once said.  And conscious of Consciousness Itself almost permanently in its broad expanse and as the whole world in front of me.  Having said that, my experience of my body and mind on a daily basis does fit with some of the descriptions of Core Wound in White Hot Yoga, so far as I can remember.

I particularly feel pain in just about every cell, muscle, fibre and bone of my body.  I also feel that I have quite literally had the stuffing knocked out of me - so much so that I am overly sensitised to everything around me.  Even drinking a cup of tea can be painful.

Something that intrigues me - although I never became a devotee of Adi Da, my 2nd Birth was such that my bodymind was revealed as this massive contraction of energy.  2nd Birth relieved some of that contraction and consequently left my bodymind so open and porous that the White Light shines through as a more or less constant.  I don't however find this blissful.  It "lights up" a rather horrific picture (to me) of the horror story of manifest life in front of me.  AND in my total non separation from others and the world makes me suffer their distress and contracted state all the time.  Oh boy.  It hurts physically - and emotionally.

I find it very tough being me in a world where no-one around me has a clue about my state.

Finally, I had another experience in 2004 when my nephew died.  It was similar to something I've only read U G Krishnamurti write about.  I was blasted by this massive Live Wire of Shakti - almost like a 50 foot electrical cable.  I saw there was no meaning to life, that there is nothing after death for the body-mind-self.  Years later, Roberts confirms this to me in a whole variety of ways, including the confirmation that the self and even our Realisations are impermanent.  There's a beautiful piece towards the end of What Is Self? where she says something like she realises Christ too had come to this point and revelation. That it was the identity of having given all for nothing, absolute nothing, despite all his love and trust of the Father.

And I find that really hard to live with these days.  I feel I've already burnt myself out with too much work, too much seeking, too much trying to survive, too much heartbreak - you name it.  And the physical and emotional Revelation that it's all for nothing (which I also saw back in 2004)is devastating.  Or that's how I experienced it.

I'm going to stop there.  I hope you do write more soon, but take on board what you say about not writing often.  And I'm seriously not worried about what your real identity is - your authenticity comes through in your words anyhow.

Gill

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by: Gill Smith @ Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 04:43:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Core Misery (0.00 / 0)

Hi Gill-

Your reply makes me happy. I still feel "hooked" by Waking Down, and I started thinking about the elements that hooked me.
1) The Core Wound
2) The Transmission
3) The Second Birth
4) Mutuality
 I may have more, but these came to mind as essential, and I have some things to say about each one.
 First, thank you for clarifying how you relate to the concept of the Core Wound. You say you agreed to the term since you were writing to a WDM website. I think along the same lines. When I wrote my last post I felt compromised and I knew something felt wrong about it, but I posted it anyway. When I reflected on that feeling the next day, I realized that I had adapted my post to the waking down framework, without really accepting it.
 The words Core Wound gives you an image. They tell a story. If I don't accept the context and meaning of this story, then I should not use the phrase. Same with the other WDM jargon. I got some clarity about this subject while reading the book "Don't Think of an Elephant" by George Lakoff. I'll repeat this briefly. In this book, he shows how the Republicans in the U.S. have used framing (concepts) to their advantage. As one of his examples, he deconstructs the phrase "Tax Relief". The word relief tells the story. It frames taxes as a burden from which we need relief. Then we need a hero too, like Robin Hood, to help us. Then when the Democrats argue with the Republicans about the plans or the need for "Tax Relief", the Democrats have already lost their ground without knowing it, as soon as they used the phrase "Tax Relief".
The power of language and the politics of language works in religions and in Waking Down. The words Core Wound tell a story and frame my personal pain in a way that I never fully accepted. I like the Core Mystery better, but I don't fully accept that either, because that sounds more intellectual than physical. Maybe I should call it Time Pain. So often I have felt it grow while stuck in traffic, late for something I needed to arrive on time for. It reminds me of a time I stood in a checkout line at our local variety store. I had a feeling I picked the wrong line, although I base my choices on several factors and choose carefully. Now this ordinary experience of pain got amplified because some employee brought out a pizza and started giving out samples near the exit door. I felt hungry and wanted to get a piece of pizza. But as I watched I saw that while the first few people had gotten good sized pieces since she had just started cutting it, still she only had one pizza, so she kept cutting the pieces left into smaller pieces during the short intervals between people. The anguish I felt as I watched my line slow down even more, as someone had an item needing a price check and the pizza gal kept cutting the pieces into even smaller ones that I saw would end up as mere molecules of pizza which she would cut into atoms by the time I got there, kind of sums up what I mean by Time Pain. Actually I think it also resembles a description of Hell. I don't know if any simple name can fit my experience of it, due to it's changing qualities.
I think that right know, I would rather describe it as a verb, and not a noun. I have my Core Doing which sometimes feels painful, and other times connects me to the benevolent and eternal oneness of being.
 When I feel the pain of it, I suffer from the desire to escape my pain. But I don't just "do" the suffering. I also "do" my pain. I know this because I have "undone" my pain enough times. Just because this works for me sometimes does not mean it will work for you. I don't know if we feel the same pain, and I know I don't feel the intensity of pain you describe. I still regard you as a mystery. And why do I say "sometimes" above? Because I don't have any formula or method. I don't know what I do exactly to feel connected and free of pain. Every time I think I know, I start to practice whatever I think I know, and I find out later that it quits working.
 I like that you just call it pain and that you simply feel it. I don't find that type of integrity often, and I have no reason to think that just because I have a choice in the matter, (sometimes), that you have, or can make the same choice.
 For myself, the pain and the wrongness about life that you also talk about, (and I also feel), makes me very much a seeker. But I don't seek the Transcendent like I used to. I seek for a way to bring the Transcendent or the eternal into the world of time. I seek a teacher, as I have for many years. I seek a teacher who has a clear vision of how to live well in a very fucked up world. I'll get back to that a little later.
 Now, what about this thing we call Transmission? I think that the word Transmission comes out of a Newtonian/Cartesian model of reality and we have to get past these old models. For me the word Transmission evokes the image of a radio tower transmitting a signal to other receivers in other locations.
 No such "transmission" exists. But I have found, in my experience that I feel "transmission" manifesting in just that apparent way. You mentioned Bubba Da Jones a few times. I experienced his transmission on many occasions, first as a follower, then as a devotee living in the community of devos in Northern California during the late 70's.  His transmission for me came in different "flavors", sometimes with sheer fantastic transformative power, sometimes gently moving me into a blissful state where I saw and felt everything- including myself- composed of various wavelengths of light without any real separation. Still, I think his Transmission proved too powerful for me to handle at that time. Add to that mix his very elaborate teaching and boot camp practices for devotees, crazy wisdom and "theater", plus the politics of power as it flowed though the hierarchy of lay members of the church and you have a pretty good recipe for fucking people up.
 I would describe my experience in that community in the same way I would describe my short but astonishing experience with Eli Jaxon Bear. Great transmission, cultic followers, bad politics, and abuses of power.
 My 6 word summation: great writers, great "transmitters", crappy leaders.

 But I did enjoy running with Da's  tribe for a while. I did enjoy the "Transmission" Finally I liked that he had an overarching vision of enlightenment. You go through the seven stages of light, and once you hit the 7th stage, you have fully arrived. You've got no place left you need to go.
 I find some of that clarity of vision in the work of Bernadette Roberts. The state of no-self that she describes seems like  a final "goal" at which point all seeking ends. I don't find that type of clarity in WDM, thus the question "what do we do now, after the Second Birth?" WDM has a strong foundation and focus as far as getting people to the Second Birth experience. But after the Second Birth, I found a pretty big grab bag and hodgepodge of different ideas and very little unity of meaning and purpose.

 This brings me to my third "hook". The Second Birth. First, I get why Saniel chose that type of image. I don't blame him. He had to distinguish it from other processes and mark it as a physical, perhaps painful experience. I experienced my Second Birth as a profound initiation. Nothing I experienced with Bubba Da Jones or others compares to the leap I made with the Second Birth. But I saw Waking Down teaching as 90% yammering, squawking, and jargon. Gradually, I went back to seeking. I felt strongly drawn to the work of Bernadette Roberts. In fact I felt a strong transmission power reading her book "What is Self?". I don't often get transmission from books, including most WDM writing. But I did feel it strongly from that book. In contrast I felt nothing, absolutely nothing, from watching her little video. She has no charisma I can see and looks dismally disorganized in her presentation. I talked to an ex WDM person who had attended her 3 day workshop in Fullerton California. She said that she felt zero transmission from BR and that she felt more impressed with her fellow attendees at the workshop than with BR. I also found two internet reviews of her workshop.  It sounds like she basically reads from printed text for most of her presentation, and responds sharply or abruptly to questions that fall outside the umbrella of Christian Mysticism. I don't think I would like to slog through more dogma. I prefer no dogma, and I could not bring myself to attend her workshop. I felt like I hit a dead end with her and continued my search.
 Here I have to at least mention Adyashanti, who also speaks of No-self. I listened to Adyashanti talks off and on for a couple years. I'll grant him this: he does have his way of greenlighting people. Adyashanti wears his white hat, and I'd like to have a beer with him. But I found eventually that when it came to talking about no-self, his teaching turns into mush, along with his integrity. When I look at teachers such as Bernadette Roberts or either of the Krishnamurti's (J or U.G.), I perceive them as people who don't care much if their audience likes them. I would trust them not to compromise their message in order to get approval from their audience.  I can't say that about Adyashanti who seems to bend his message to make it palatable to his audience, and to insure that they like him, and stay around. I don't trust him for that reason. It must get very lonely at the top, and I see this as a failing of many otherwise strong teachers.
 More than almost anyone else right now. I relate to Shinzen Young as a teacher. He makes sense to me when he talks about the no-self state. He does not claim to live in that state, but he talks about it as a transition from a solid state, like a block of ice, to a liquid state (water), and eventually a gaseous state (steam). So you still have the basic elements of the self, but they do not congeal and cause blocks in the flow of energy.
 He also says that people may need more than one teacher at a time. Some may need two teachers or even several. I think right now, I need 5, for 5 specific purposes.

 So anyway, moving on to my last hook- Mutuality. I don't want to comment on all of Mutuality, but just a piece. A piece that to me felt like arriving home after a long and difficult journey.
 In two workshops I attended, one with Ted and Hillary, the other with Saniel and Linda, I bonded with the little groups that gathered there. Most of all, I found a home in my own power to listen with fierce intensity to the stories of others. Usually these stories involve struggle and suffering. I found in these times that I could listen beyond myself, beyond my own pain, and connect so deeply with the person talking that I felt like I held them in my listening. I felt nothing but love and unity in that connection. I don't know if my- or our-  listening helped to lighten their burden. How can we measure something like that? I only know that my whole body-mind-spirit -self said only YES to this process, and I felt whole and complete in knowing without one shred of doubt that I resided in exactly the right place, in each present moment, doing exactly the right thing.
 I miss that connection. But I won't compromise one bit of my integrity to re-connect with WDM. I think that path has closed for me. I don't blame anyone for this now. I blamed and resented for a long time. I made such a big issue out of some people disappointing me. Has that ever happened to you? Now I think that something beyond WDM closed this path for me. Some call of destiny perhaps. Some active principle of evolution.
 I recently heard an interview of Hillary Strauss in which she talks about something she calls "holding a position".  You may find it here, if they bring it back.

http://www.tedstrauss.com/Vide...

Look for Hillary's interviews, part 4.

Anyway I will probably take this out of context, as I only saw it once,  but her idea of holding a position explained so much to me. I saw so much of what I had done and thought in my life, even up to present time as "holding a position". To relate it to my themes:
1) The Core wound. I held a position about this, not only by holding the pain of it in place, but also the meaning of it in place. core wound, core Mystery, Core doing. Igor Stravinsky called it "the anguish of unconditional freedom". I love that phrase. Whatever I call it, I feel the pain of it, then get out of that pain, holding one position after another, about the meaning of that pain, and the meaning of my relief from that pain.
 Einstein posed the fundamental question of life as this: "Is the universe friendly?". I think it is, when I feel the fullness of being, and the wellness of being as I connect to that eternal silent wellspring.
Today. I may not think so next week.
2) Transmission- even though I criticize the word, I still have to use it because I have so substitute yet. I still hold a position that Transmission helps me, even though I do not understand it, or why I think it helps.
3) Second birth. I held a position of  "now that I have had my Second Birth I can act in this way, or I can do this better or blah blah blah. Or- Now I am enlightened- blah blah blah. I held many different position and tried on many assumptions, but I kept having to drop them as they became obsolete, one after another.
4) Mutuality- I used to hold a position that I could practice Mutuality outside of the WDM community. Partly true, but not at the level that I described above, in a group gathered together with the same intent.  Also Waking Down- I have gone back and forth in holding positions on Waking Down. Having relaxed out of one position, of blame and resentment, do I still hold another position: "that path has closed for me"... um, destiny... evolution...How do I know that? Aha!

 I wrote all this partly to introduce myself to you a little better and give you some background into how I think about all this stuff. In closing I want to comment more specifically about what you have said in your letter and past posts. Mainly I want to comment on the subjects of pain and meaninglessness.
 First, I don't understand your pain, or why you have so much pain. I see that you have invested in the same teachers I have, from Da to Saniel to Bernadette, that we both have had our "Second Birth", and found a feeling connection to the Transcendent. But I don't feel the intensity of pain that you feel, nor do I feel it continuously. Have I tuned into a different wavelength of Light than you? Do you have a longer or deeper Hero's Journey through the fire than I do?  Did I just manage to slip past the guardians at the gate into a more benevolent reality? Does your pain mean that you have more integrity, more ability to stay with real bottom line reality? I don't know. What do you think?
 Secondly, we have your experience of meaninglessness. You entitled the original post here Belief Versus Direct Perception. I assume that you don't just believe that life has no meaning based on evidence, but that you experience life directly in that way. You surprised me in talking about how Bernadette Robert's writing confirms this view. I never got that impression from reading her that life has no meaning. I'll have to read her last book again, but I don't think I will agree with her that life, and/or the Crucifiction has no meaning. Ha- I love that misspelling. How Freudian of me.
 Finally I can't close this without addressing a very difficult subject. You look for reasons as to why people react and argue so strongly against you on this forum. I see an obvious reason that no one has mentioned here, as far as I remember, (and I have not read everything in the longer more complicated branching posts because it just becomes too much work for me to follow--- a problem I see with the layout of this forum- by the way- that I never experience in simpler mailing groups). But not to stray too far from my point here, I have to mention suicide.
 I know that in one of your posts here, or perhaps on Ted's site you write about suicide and how you have thought about it. I think you also say you won't do it, but I see three warning signs in your writing:
1) you have mentioned thinking about suicide
2) You live in constant physical/emotional pain
3) You say life has no meaning
 I see those factors and I hesitate to greenlight you to both stay in your pain AND stay with your perception that life has no meaning. Because meaning does reduce or eliminate the suffering around pain and makes it bearable, even more than bearable, even OK. If nothing you do has meaning, and you hold no hope for finding meaning, then why go on living?
 Thus I find myself walking on thin ice here. I decided to edit out a section I wrote in support of your perception that life has no meaning. Instead I will simply disagree with you for now. I can agree with you on some things you say:

 " I feel I've already burnt myself out
  with  too much work,"
Me too!
 "too much seeking,"
Yes! and I still seek!"
 "too much trying to survive,"
Oh hell yeah.
 "too much heartbreak"
I don't even want to talk about that.
 "- you name it".
OK --too much disappointment

"And the physical and emotional Revelation that it's all for nothing (which I also saw back in 2004)is devastating".

  No. I don't believe it's all for nothing. I believe it's all for everything. I live a live full of meaning. I did not get it from any teacher or Dharma, I just put it together on my own. I found some pieces of string and bits of plastic on the road and I put them together with some mud mixed with my own tears and made meaning out of it. I have more meaning than I know what to do with. I have got meaning coming out of my ass. Hell, I could write a whole big goddamned book of meaning and still have some left over. Even this- what I do right now, hitting these little keys on a computer sending these words out as a massive collection of zeros and ones bouncing from server to server, perhaps broken up into packets of data that travel different pathways, to get re-assembled and posted on a website  that some woman in ENGLAND, whom I have never met, but care about, will read and probably reply to, all makes me glad to live in such an amazing world, and gives my life meaning. I just woke up from a wonderful dream a while ago. I don't know what it means but it too gives my life meaning and why wouldn't I want to share that? Not the dream, I won't torture you with that,  but just to share this feeling of, or belief in, or direct experience of meaning feels natural and right to me.

OK. I've lost it. I've got to stop.

 But one more thing,  have you seen the film "Grand Torino"?  Although it has some corny, heavy handed elements, it also has great meaning, and a pertinent one for this discussion. I won't say why, because I hate spoilers, but the ending specifically relates to one thing you mentioned.
 I'll wrap this up. I think I have said enough for now. I tend to get carried away, but sometimes writing helps me sort thing out and I think I have done some sorting out with this letter. I really look forward to your reply, especially on the topics of excruciating pain, the complete loss of self, and a life utterly devoid of all meaning.

Cheers,

Bapa

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by: Bapa @ Fri Oct 30, 2009 at 08:48:35 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Core Misery (0.00 / 0)

Hi Bapa

Was Core "Misery" also a Freudian mistake as "Cruci-fiction"?!  Either way, I love both.

Thanks for your long but extremely interesting posting.  Unfortunately I find myself posting this with little time to do it complete justice as I'm about to go away on a week's holiday (part of my birthday celebrations - I'll be 50 next Friday).  But I thought I'd write something rather than nothing, however inadequate.

I too got very little transmission from Bernadette Roberts dvds.  Zilch.  No matter.  She is not asking us to be her followers (as with UG).  Her books are the most powerful for me (I do often get transmission from books).  It's an old pattern to want to go run and follow her.  That's not where it's at for me though.  I'm alone and although some people and teachers may help, ultimately it's about that alone and unique journey I guess.

Disappointment.  OH YES!!!  Tons of it.  Especially perhaps around the end results of Awakening.  WDM disappointed me in their false promises of intimacy and friendship, emotional promises that couldn't be upheld.  But they were secondary to the 2nd birth awakening, which I still hold as amazing and worth recommending people to.  Yes, I guess I agree with you there.  WDM are great in getting people to 2nd Birth but afterwards...

It's been extra difficult for me living geographically so far away in England.  No one's fault.  But the extremeties of isolation I've experienced and still experience are desolating, often.

I rarely experience the Universe to be friendly these days.  I feel so utterly abused by it, past and present - and future.  Yes, it is sometimes kind.  But ultimately we are all small fry in an enormous place, so we are all relatively unimportant.

I still have a "self" so can't comment much on loss of self - only that after reading BR I'm now aware of the possibility.  I'm not sure that I particularly desire it or not.  I'll just let God do what the hell it wants with me...  I'm not seeking to keep or lose my self.  For me, either state is undesireable...

I've lost my "mind" many, many times in this awakening process, and when encountering severe trauma, death, terror and so on.  I think it's the mind that creates the fiction of meaning, so if you lose your mind, you lose meaning...

I guess by "no meaning" I mean (hah!) that ultimately there is no meaning to life, let alone human life.  But we can have "relative" meaning within our lives, to be sure.  I'm just wary of "magical" thinking.  A lot of people read meaning into stuff (I used to too)which is bullshit.

Losing my mind whilst becoming more and more embodied is part of the excrutiating pain.  My physical body is just in pain most of the time.  Having said that, I do still have a mind, but it plays a very secondary role to my body now.  I can't talk myself out of pain.

Because I'm so 360degrees Conscious, I am vulnerable to the transmissions of every body around me.  This is excrutiating, I find.  Because everyone is contracted and up in their heads, unconcious from the neck downwards and I'm moving through this contracted space all the time.  Ouch and double ouch.

I'm also just so heartbroken by the yin and yang of relationships, the love and hate.  It's exhausting.

But having no-one here to even talk to about all this...I move so totally alone in a world I view as insane most of the time.  Shit shit and double shit.

Yes, there are occasional nice times...maybe next week in the Lake District with my boyfriend, driving along in the autumn sunshine in the hills I will experience some moments of relief.  But it's not long before I have to face the hell of my working life and the hell of all of my relationships.  I'm not taking a position here, this is really just how it is for me - and in retrospect always was, I was just too unconscious to even dare to admit it.

I think BR says something like we all think to find the Truth is a noble thing, yet the Truth is more like the death of man...

Maybe people resist me because I am expressing some truths that are very unpalatable yet which they know somewhere inside them are true, or could be them in the future if certain things happened to them.  

Two events post 2nd birth particularly effected me - experiencing the terror of someone wanting to murder me for 2 years and then witnessing the physically disgusting demise of my nephew by bone cancer, and then his death.  That's when I saw how little the universe cares, ultimately.  But maybe more on that some other day.

Cheers,

Gill

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by: Gill Smith @ Sun Nov 01, 2009 at 05:59:15 AM CST

[ Parent ]

termites (0.00 / 0)

Hi Gill-
 I too have very little time right now but I want to just write a quick and limited response. First, I wish I had not brought up the question "Is the universe friendly?". I think it CAN lead to magical thinking which I try to root out of my own thinking whenever I find it. Also it has that cosmic abstract quality that I don't think will serve us in this discussion.
 So forget about that, and lets talk about termites instead. Now I have compared human to termites for years before before this Dilbert strip ran with it, but Dilbert gives it an extra twist that I love. I'll paste the link below.

http://gcmouli.wordpress.com/2...

 When you talk about the futility of life, I think of this termite comparison. Termites find a warm wet log, or some grass, or other food sources, and they start consuming and reproducing. They sometimes build large towers that can look like whole cities for termites. After they consume all the resources in the area, they die out by the hundreds, thousands, or even millions, with a few going out to look for new resources. Now we don't look at this as a great tragedy. We don't say, "Oh if only those termites had learned population control and sustainable living practices, they could still be living in those mounds,  with just smaller numbers".  No the termites just do what biological design has set them up to do. Same with humans.  Human beings consume the resources of this planet and overpopulate it. We treat the planet like a big wet log. Full of food, water, timber, minerals, metals. and oil. The human race will probably have a massive die off from climate change or other man made catastrophe.
 So I get the futility of life from that large perspective. From the cosmic perspective, the human race will probably die out, and what difference does that make in the grand scheme of things? Nada. But you say this in your post:

I guess by "no meaning" I mean (hah!) that ultimately there is no meaning to life, let alone human life.  But we can have "relative" meaning within our lives, to be sure.

You know what? That's just where I live, Gill. I don't live in the "ultimate". I wish I could. I tried to but the "relatives" kept dragging me back. So I live in this tiny insignificant termite world with the other termites. I do recycling and conserving even though I know that it will most likely not make one whit of difference. I don't feel optimistic about the prospects of the human race. Still I do what seems right to me. And if I can help a fellow termite out, or comfort them, or teach them something, then that makes a meaningful difference for me and for the termite I help. Thus,  while I know I have not accomplished anything ultimate, I still find that gives me enough meaning. I don't feel ready yet to  save the human race from extinction. One of my failings.

So anyway, I wanted to send this quickly to  take the opportunity to wish you a happy birthday, and I hope you have enjoyable holiday by the lake. Best wishes, from one termite to another ;-)

Peace,

Bapa

 

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by: Bapa @ Mon Nov 02, 2009 at 08:58:51 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Termites (0.00 / 0)

Yeah, I get that - the termites.  And that we are no more important than them.  I think what I find difficult is all the suffering and pain I (we) have to go through - for nothing.  Because I have an ego and a mind, an awareness which presumably termites don't. Gxx

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by: Gill Smith @ Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 04:34:15 AM CST

[ Parent ]

termites (0.00 / 0)

Yeah, I hear you there. Termites don't have the complex brain circuitry to feel emotional pain, to feel sorrow over a great loss. We do.

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by: Bapa @ Mon Nov 09, 2009 at 07:28:52 AM CST

trust (0.00 / 0)

Hi Gill-

You said this-

Disappointment.  OH YES!!!  Tons of it.  Especially perhaps around the end results of Awakening.  WDM disappointed me in their false promises of intimacy and friendship, emotional promises that couldn't be upheld.

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I keep thinking about this and how it may relate to my own experience. Would you mind elaborating on this subject?

thanks,

Bapa

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by: Bapa @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 09:18:31 AM CST

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Hi Bapa

It's interesting that I visit mutuality.net today for the first time in about a month - I've been moving house and very preoccupied with that - to find that you've posted your posting just yesterday.  Great timing and coincidence!

I'll try and elaborate as best I can, but it's been a long while since I thought about this subject.  It was 2000/2001 when I was mostly involved with Waking Down.

Some of it was, of course, my own emotional idealism and false hopes about Awakening.  A lot of this only disappeared post-2nd birth, as do a lot of former delusions about life and relationships, as I'm pretty sure you're aware of.

But I do remember at the time that the great intimacy with teachers (perhaps what's needed in order to awaken) led me astray somewhat; led me into believing they could care and interact with me on a greater level than they could.  I challenged my teacher Ted Strauss about this shortly after 2nd birth and he wisely admitted that the teachers themselves were also learning that.  That, without deliberately wanting to hurt students (indeed quite the reverse) some had inadvertently ended up promising more than they could deliver.  So it was as much a learning curve for them at the time as it was for students.  I can't comment on the current picture, as I'm not involved at that level any more.

I do know, however, that there are many ex-WDM students who feel likewise.  They never did get "met"; ALL of who they were was NOT welcomed always!  Again, I hope some of the idealism of the WDM teachers has changed on this.

What little I've read of the recent "advertising" does make me wonder sometimes though.  For me it's still a little cheesy and talk of freedom, love and trust is partly misleading.  There's little talk of the dangerous and dark side of this process.  When I challenged Saniel about that back in 2001 I got told "darkness doesn't sell".  So there was a lot of concern for me at the time that people were being encouraged into something they thought was going to be wonderful, only for them to be smashed to smithereens (which is kind of what happened to me).

Having said all of this, from the outset I used to say to myself that I took full responsibility for my process - so although I grumbled, I never felt the heat or venom towards WDM that I know some people do or did.

At the time there used to be something called The Human Sun Seminar.  I privately renamed it The Human Sin Seminar = 12 radiant gateways to hate, trappedness and distrust.  All talk of Health, Happiness and Wellbeing was countered by the Realization of Illness, Unhappiness and Ill-being as equal partners in life. At the end of the day, I think it just needed (needs?) more BALANCE, and definitely more Realism.

Also, it took Conscious Embodiment to make me aware of my many emotional issues - and I did feel I'd been a little seduced by WDM.  Not in any sexual way, I hasten to add - I always found WDM very "clean" on that front.

On a positive note, I also came to admire the teachers - hell, I wouldn't want to do their job!!!  Faced with broken people, all hungry for love and attention and freedom from this hell-hole of a life.  Ok, some are going to sail through, but I wouldn't want to be up against seekers' issues all the time.  I've sort of done that kind of thing when I used to work in the mental health field, and it's a nightmare.

That's some of it, anyway.  

Love, Gill

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by: Gill Smith @ Tue Dec 01, 2009 at 07:49:26 AM CST

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Thanks Gill for sharing that background. I thought it generous of you to ascribe your disappointing experiences to "growing pains" in WDM.
I also had to sit though "Human Sun Seminar". I had my own rebellion against that whole shit-mess. But no use in grumbling about that now.

My own disappointment in regards to intimacy and relationship had more to do with feeling that I could only remain a part of "the club" as long as I kept paying money for teachers and workshops. The "friendships" exist only as long as you keep paying. I don't know if that still holds true. I also have not participated for a long time, so I don't know how much things may have changed. The internet keeps making new avenues more accessible.
Love,
Bapa

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by: Bapa @ Sat Dec 05, 2009 at 09:40:27 AM CST

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Yes, I too found that to be the case - that I had to continue to shell out money for retreats, teachers phone calls or mentor training to remain "part of the club".  And I couldn't do that, either financially or geographically.  So my dreams of being involved at some level, and/or being a teacher myself, crumbled steadily.  

Perhaps it was "meant to be" as they say - as I made my slow and tortuous journey back to being incredibly normal.  That journey is still occuring.  Except of course we're no longer "normal".  We've a perspective on life that is mind-blowing (and various other adjectives I can't think of at the moment), and leaves us very isolated in the world community that largely knows nothing about what has happened to us.  That's one of the most difficult things I've had to learn to live with and still live with.  

Although, I was just saying to a friend/student in America, that knowing other "awake" people isn't necessarily any kind of "answer" either.  The few I knew in southern England at the time in 2001 I really didn't get on with at all.  And the recent disagreements I've had with some people on this site also goes to show that being awake doesn't guarantee friendship and so on.

It's a real shame.  

An ex-WDer used to have a website back in 2001 and posted an essay there called The Craving for Intimacy.  In it he wrote about how he thought the most basic need and yearning we all have is for Intimacy, in all sorts of areas of our life.  It is such a good essay that I think it is literally amongst the best dharma I've read.  If you'd like a copy, email me at gill.smith50@yahoo.co.uk.  Of course, the essay also points out that lack of intimacy is what most of us suffer from.

Love, Gill

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by: Gill Smith @ Tue Dec 08, 2009 at 03:53:12 AM CST

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Thanks, Gill. I'll send you an email.
Love, Bapa

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by: Bapa @ Sat Dec 12, 2009 at 03:22:17 AM CST

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